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ANZEIGE
Mal eine Frage anders herum:
Welchen Flug hat der Eurowings Discover A330-300 D-AFYR am 22.5.2022 ex FRA durchgeführt?
Wäre lieb, wenn da jemand mit Zugang über 7 Tage hinaus kurz in die entsprechenden Datenbanken schauen könnte.
Vielen lieben Dank!
Carsten
Welchen Flug hat der Eurowings Discover A330-300 D-AFYR am 22.5.2022 ex FRA durchgeführt?
Wäre lieb, wenn da jemand mit Zugang über 7 Tage hinaus kurz in die entsprechenden Datenbanken schauen könnte.
Vielen lieben Dank!
Carsten
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@bursche99, vielen Dank. Since I didn't see this post for a long time, I will reply in English so as not to waste more time figuring out how to say all this with my sehr schlecht Deutsch. Thank you for revisiting this one so long after I posted it. I did a similar exercise of elimination a few months ago. AC only had 16 CRJ-705s at the time (which were actually de-rated CRJ-900s and properly abbreviated as CRA or CRJ9, not CRJ7 as many tracking sites call them; but that's another matter). I was able to eliminate all but 2 based on other flights / ACARS position reports.
As @SaschaX99 deduced, at the time, AC had two CRAs sitting on the ground at IAH each night, which then operated the morning flights to YYC and YYZ. I don't believe there was any consistency to which aircraft operated which morning flight.
The two candidates I had remaining were C-FCJZ and C-GDJZ.
The only time I found C-FCJZ captured around that time is the same data point you found. Operating 8103 IAH-YYC definitely would have left lots of time to operate 8106. In fact, the aircraft could have operated a short regional turn in that time, e.g. YYC-YXE-YYC. It also could have sat for a few hours at YYC.
C-GDJZ was captured ~24 hours later (2106 GMT) by an ACARS receiver in Perry, NY. In my spreadsheet where I was tracking this, I had it noted that the flight was AC8938 YOW-YUL. I just looked it up in FlightStats though, and AC8938 was actually a YYZ-YQM flight. In some ways, this makes far more sense - Perry, NY would be well placed to capture a YYZ-YQM flight, but would be unlikely (I suspect) to record a YOW-YUL flight, so it may be a case of ACARSD attaching the wrong route, which I know happens often. However, 2106 GMT would have been 1706 in YYZ. AC8938 departed YYZ at 1431 local (1831 GMT; about an hour behind schedule) and arrived YQM at 17:20 local (20:20 GMT). This is actually a good fit with 8108, which arrived an hour late, and would have been a logical turn time for 8938. But the 2106 timestamp makes no sense.
Maybe I just recorded the wrong time; elsewhere in the spreadsheet, I see I recorded a different data point captured at 2106 in Perry, NY, so maybe I copied + pasted and forgot to check the time? I tried to go check it on acarsd.org, but it seems after so many years of being inactive, that website has finally shut down, sadly? I was able to get the log from the Wayback Machine, and it confirms C-GDJZ (CRJ7 QK) 2106 20120904 QK8938 (YOW-YUL) [Perry in Western New York, 42.43N -78.00W]. Maybe it was actually 8939? But that data point is still probably at least an hour too early.
Regardless, I'm not sure that data point proves it one way or the other. If C-GDJZ didn't operate 8106 on the 3rd, it could have flown from YYC to somewhere like YQR, YXE, or YWG, then to YYZ in the morning. This type of pairing would be common in later years and maybe in the winter. But when I checked the AC schedule from YQR/YXE/YWG to YYZ on the 4th, all of the flights were mainline AC - not CRA operated by QK. The YYC-YQR/YXE/YWG flights also appeared to be operated by CRJ and not CRA.
If C-GDJZ really did operate 8938 on the 4th, I think this is pretty good evidence that it operated 8106 on the 3rd and then 8108 on the 4th, as I see no other way for that aircraft to get from YYC to Perry, NY in that timeframe. The timestamp really bothers me though; 2106 GMT just does not make sense with 8938.
But even if 8938 is wrong and the timestamp is correct, I'm not sure there's any other way for that aircraft to get to overhead Perry, NY by 2106 GMT on the 4th other than flying AC8106 on the 3rd. I had thought there might have been a daytime route possible via somewhere in the middle of the country, but again, I see no flights operated by QK that could have been operated by this aircraft. I'm surprised IAH seems to be the only connection on the CRA between the eastern and western parts of the AC network, but of course my perception is coloured by today's fleet of 35 (vs the 16 back in 2012), and the fact that E90s (which in the past might have handled some of the thinner routes like YXE/YQR/YWG-YYZ/YUL/YOW) were still in the fleet back in 2012.
Das ist schwer, antworten zu finden!
I know I have a lot more familiarity with the AC route network than you guys, but you guys are the experts in these complicated searches; what do you think of my logic above? I'm quite confident about eliminating the other 14 aircraft, so it's just C-GDJZ vs C-FCJZ.
Regarding C-GDJZ Acars shows the following for 03.09.12
| 17822 | C-GDJZ | CRJ7 | QK | 2008 | 20120903 | QK8102 | [unknown] | |
| 19928 | C-GDJZ | CRJ7 | QK | 2152 | 20120903 | QK8105 | [unknown] |
According to time table AC (times may vary a little bit since the time table is valid from 06.09.12)
QK8102 YYC-IAH 0930 1422
QK8105 IAH-YYC 1440 1811
QK8106 YYC-IAH 1825 2317
Comparing the times when the aircraft was tracked and the times according to time table I can't imagine that the aircraft that flew QK8105 also flew QK8106. Given that and that your elemination was correct I would say it should be C-FCJZ.
@bursche99 What do you think?
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Actually, the schedule was just slightly different on September 3rd. According to FlightStats:
| Flight | Route | Sch. Dep. | Act. Dep. | Sch. Arr. | Act. Arr. |
| QK8102 | YYC-IAH | 8:50 | 8:48 | 13:51 | 13:37 |
| QK8105 | IAH-YYC | 14:25 | 14:20 | 17:29 | 17:16 |
| QK8106 | YYC-IAH | 18:20 | 18:35 | 23:14 | 23:25 |
At 51 minutes, the block time on the turn from 8105 to 8106 is actually quite feasible and fairly in line with what AC would schedule for that type of aircraft. As you can see, they only blocked 34 minutes for the turn at IAH, although at outstations they typically block a bit less (the flight would be double catered on the outbound from YYC or YYZ to save a few minutes, for instance).
Here are some tracks more for your favorite choise. Don't know if you already considered them.
Location: Woodbridge VA (not sure which timezone but guess UTC)
C-FCJZ CRJ7 Jazz/Air Canada E... 2012/09/04 14:02:16
KINGSTON, ON, CANADA for 04/09/2012. Times are LOCAL
nC04D98 -------- C-GDJZ CRJ7 23825 25000 04/09/2012 15:01:00
nC04D98 -------- C-GDJZ CRJ7 22000 20550 04/09/2012 18:15:39
SBS-1 Log from MONTREAL, QUEBEC beginning 04/09/2012 09:37:21. Times are LOCAL
nC04D98 -------- C-GDJZ CRJ9 25000 23000 04/09/2012 15:04:02
I hadn't seen these, actually. The data points I mentioned were the only ones I had found, and I think I had been through all the logs you sent me over on a.net as well as other public sources.
This one is odd. Woodbridge, ON would have made some sense, as that's near YYZ. I can't see or think of any flights that would take a CRA near the DC area on that date. AC was not flying to IAD, DCA was mainline, and other destinations that might have triggered a hit around there (BWI, RDU, CLT, etc) were CRJs or Dash-8s.
Now I'm really puzzled, because as I said earlier, I'm not sure what other route could have taken a CRA from YYC to eastern Canada around that time, and it seems that both C-FCJZ and C-GDJZ made the switch in a similar time period. Although C-FCJZ would have had more time, after arriving YYC as 8103, to make it out east via some other route than C-GDJZ would have had.
These would line up reasonably well with that 8938/8939 YYZ-YQM-YYZ turn.
I'm still leaning towards C-GDJZ, but that data point on C-FCJZ is confusing. I might need to have another think and look at FlightStats. The other day, I was very focused on finding a combination of flights that would have allowed C-GDJZ to get from YYC after arriving at 17:16 to eastern Canada by early afternoon the next day, and IAH appeared to be the only possible transit point at any time. It's possible I was too focused on certain times of day and ignored some route combinations that would have been possible if leaving YYC earlier, e.g. after arriving as 8103.
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I compared the Woodbridge Reports with Arcars Org files where QK8108 was tracked, but 04.09.12 was the only match.
I'm curious, do those Woodbridge reports look like they are really Woodbridge, VA, or are they maybe Woodbridge, ON? If there are lots and lots of AC aircraft, that would suggest it's actually in Canada.
Would say it's really VA, USA
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"msgSnippet": "Report generated by AirNav RadarBox - 4.03 Advanced Real-time Radar Decoder http://www.airnavsystems.com Log Author: Skyroost Location: Woodbridge VA Country:",
"messageBody": "<div id=\"ygrps-yiv-1899371159\">Report generated by AirNav RadarBox - 4.03<br/>\nAdvanced Real-time Radar Decoder<br/>\n<a rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"http://www.airnavsystems.com\">http://www.airnavsystems.com</a><br/>\nLog Author: Skyroost<br/>\nLocation: Woodbridge VA<br/>\nCountry: USA<br/>\nGenerated at 2012/09/05 00:00:01 UTC<br/>\nValid for 2012/09/05<br/>\n4663 Flights Logged<br/>\n Mod
Thx for your trust in referencing me, however North Amercia is not "my home ground", i.e. nothing where I can contribute additional expertise (CAN and US is much more of yours Sascha)
I read / follow here, and I'll chime in whenever I believe it's recommended.
Vienna calling,
Die Treffer für @jonfel @Der BWLer @Mr. Hard @Razor2
found 2001-04-22 YP7481 AGP VIE 1045 ---- jonfel D-ALAM #5488
found 2001-10-05 LH3715 VIE FRA 1910 2045 Der BWLer D-AIRT #5488
found 2007-04-09 IB3576 AGP VIE ---- ---- jonfel EC-HTA #5488
found 2009-10-30 OS0176 HAM VIE 1050 1225 Mr. Hard OE-LFL #5488
found 2011-09-01 OS0292 TXL VIE 1510 1630 Razor2 OE-LDD #5488
found 2011-09-01 OS0721 VIE BUD 1725 1810 Razor2 OE-LVG #5488
found 2011-09-09 OS0272 TXL VIE 1020 1145 Razor2 OE-LNJ #5488
found 2011-09-09 OS0273 VIE TXL 2010 2125 Razor2 OE-LBF #5488
found 2011-09-25 OS0291 VIE TXL 1250 1410 Razor2 OE-LDG #5488
found 2011-09-25 OS0714 BUD VIE 1125 1215 Razor2 OE-LGB #5488
Die Treffer für @jonfel @Der BWLer @Mr. Hard @Razor2
2001-10-05 OS0938 KLU VIE 1515 1610 Der BWLer (in Wien nicht gefunden, siehe #5488)
found 2001-04-22 YP7481 AGP VIE 1045 ---- jonfel D-ALAM #5488
found 2001-10-05 LH3715 VIE FRA 1910 2045 Der BWLer D-AIRT #5488
found 2007-04-09 IB3576 AGP VIE ---- ---- jonfel EC-HTA #5488
found 2009-10-30 OS0176 HAM VIE 1050 1225 Mr. Hard OE-LFL #5488
found 2011-09-01 OS0292 TXL VIE 1510 1630 Razor2 OE-LDD #5488
found 2011-09-01 OS0721 VIE BUD 1725 1810 Razor2 OE-LVG #5488
found 2011-09-09 OS0272 TXL VIE 1020 1145 Razor2 OE-LNJ #5488
found 2011-09-09 OS0273 VIE TXL 2010 2125 Razor2 OE-LBF #5488
found 2011-09-25 OS0291 VIE TXL 1250 1410 Razor2 OE-LDG #5488
found 2011-09-25 OS0714 BUD VIE 1125 1215 Razor2 OE-LGB #5488
Etwas vorgezogener Juni-Update
So, following up on my AC8103 from 2012-09-03...
I suspect C-FCJZ was captured at Woodbridge, VA on the 4th operating AC7974 YYZ-RDU. I have come up with two plausible routes for it to have made it there after operating AC8103 on the 3rd.
(It's possible either option could have involved a short evening turn or overnight turn, rather than the aircraft sitting on the ground for 12 hours. For instance, Option 2 could have had the aircraft operate 7784 to YUL and 7783 back to YYZ. But that's not very important for our analysis here).
I hadn't really thought about Option 2 in the past, because I had assumed 8103 would arrive at YYC too late to make the turn for 8104. But 8103 was scheduled to arrive at 1000, and 45 minutes is feasible, albeit a bit tight, for a turn on a CRA. I had thought about something like Option 1, but I hadn't looked closely at the flight times. As it turns out, I think that YWG was a crossover point for CRAs between YYC and YUL.
Here's the pair of flights I'm looking at for YWG on the 3rd.
When I had looked at them individually, I saw a CRA out from YYC and a CRA back, assuming 8336 came back as 8339. But I hadn't looked at the turn time or other aircraft in/out of YWG at that time. I've seen Jazz achieve a 25-minute turnaround, but I don't think I've ever seen one scheduled that tight (I know that in IRROPs around that time, when doing things as fast as possible and cutting out any non-essential items, the target was to turn the aircraft in <30 minutes, so blocking a 35-minute turn seems aggressive enough, and 25 minutes just seems crazy). Also, with another aircraft having come in from YUL shortly before that, and another aircraft going back to YUL after the YYC flight, it makes much more sense that the aircraft would have been operating YYC-YWG-YUL and YUL-YWG-YYC.
If I had to pick which of these was more likely, I would say it's Option 1. It would have required C-FCJZ to sit around at YYC for 3 hours, which is a bit long, but that seems slightly more likely than the 45 minutes to go straight back to Houston.
Now I'm more confident in that data point, I feel comfortable ruling out C-FCJZ, which would leave C-GDJZ as the only option.
I also did another check of whether there were other options for C-GDJZ to get to YYZ in time to get captured on those data points out east on the 4th, to see whether I had missed anything like that YWG one above. I did not see anything else that worked to get from YYC to YYZ or YUL in time to operate those flights that were captured, via YWG or anywhere else.
So I think I'm pretty confident in saying we have a match as C-GDJZ. Does anyone see any problems with my reasoning or things I might have missed?
I suspect C-FCJZ was captured at Woodbridge, VA on the 4th operating AC7974 YYZ-RDU. I have come up with two plausible routes for it to have made it there after operating AC8103 on the 3rd.
- Option 1: YYC-YWG-YUL-YYZ
- YYC-YWG AC8336 1305 1555
- YWG-YUL AC8522 1630 2000
- YUL-YYZ AC7783 0530 0645
- Option 2: YYC-IAH-YYZ
- YYC-IAH AC8104 1045 1546
- IAH-YYZ AC8112 1620 2027
(It's possible either option could have involved a short evening turn or overnight turn, rather than the aircraft sitting on the ground for 12 hours. For instance, Option 2 could have had the aircraft operate 7784 to YUL and 7783 back to YYZ. But that's not very important for our analysis here).
I hadn't really thought about Option 2 in the past, because I had assumed 8103 would arrive at YYC too late to make the turn for 8104. But 8103 was scheduled to arrive at 1000, and 45 minutes is feasible, albeit a bit tight, for a turn on a CRA. I had thought about something like Option 1, but I hadn't looked closely at the flight times. As it turns out, I think that YWG was a crossover point for CRAs between YYC and YUL.
Here's the pair of flights I'm looking at for YWG on the 3rd.
| Flight | Orig. | Sch. Arr. | Flight | Dest. | Sch. Dep. |
| QK8102 | YUL | 15:29 | QK8339 | YYC | 16:20 |
| QK8336 | YYC | 15:55 | QK8522 | YUL | 16:30 |
When I had looked at them individually, I saw a CRA out from YYC and a CRA back, assuming 8336 came back as 8339. But I hadn't looked at the turn time or other aircraft in/out of YWG at that time. I've seen Jazz achieve a 25-minute turnaround, but I don't think I've ever seen one scheduled that tight (I know that in IRROPs around that time, when doing things as fast as possible and cutting out any non-essential items, the target was to turn the aircraft in <30 minutes, so blocking a 35-minute turn seems aggressive enough, and 25 minutes just seems crazy). Also, with another aircraft having come in from YUL shortly before that, and another aircraft going back to YUL after the YYC flight, it makes much more sense that the aircraft would have been operating YYC-YWG-YUL and YUL-YWG-YYC.
If I had to pick which of these was more likely, I would say it's Option 1. It would have required C-FCJZ to sit around at YYC for 3 hours, which is a bit long, but that seems slightly more likely than the 45 minutes to go straight back to Houston.
Now I'm more confident in that data point, I feel comfortable ruling out C-FCJZ, which would leave C-GDJZ as the only option.
I also did another check of whether there were other options for C-GDJZ to get to YYZ in time to get captured on those data points out east on the 4th, to see whether I had missed anything like that YWG one above. I did not see anything else that worked to get from YYC to YYZ or YUL in time to operate those flights that were captured, via YWG or anywhere else.
So I think I'm pretty confident in saying we have a match as C-GDJZ. Does anyone see any problems with my reasoning or things I might have missed?
so would this be a
found 2012-09-03 AC8106 YYC IAH 1820 2314 CR9 Adam Smith (op by QK) C-GDJZ #5493
after all? confused by your intro "on my AC8103" vs. 8106 above?
so would this be a
found 2012-09-03 AC8106 YYC IAH 1820 2314 CR9 Adam Smith (op by QK) C-GDJZ #5493
after all? confused by your intro "on my AC8103" vs. 8106 above?
Es tut mir Leid, das war ein... Typo? Tippfehler? Ich suchte AC8106.
Ah, sorry. I think at this point we can consider it found? I'm not sure we're going to get any better information.
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